Photo by Jacky Liang
A note from the editor:
Hey, there was no introduction last week. It was just time to get started.
Danny is possibly the only exception to the rule of this site, that the interviews will be done over text. He was nice enough to take some time as he revamps the menu at Buddakan, a 20-years-running Manhattan fixture just around the corner from Chelsea Market.
What happened is the first few minutes of audio sound like they’re in a digital bath, so we join the conversation as Danny talks through his relationship to the original Mission Chinese Food location in San Francisco.
This interview has been edited for clarity and sanity
Looking Stupid: So what’s your relationship to the SF Mission Chinese now?
Danny Bowien: The owners of Lung Shan, they own that restaurant 100% in San Francisco. I don’t take anything from that anymore. We don’t manage it, it’s their own thing. We left the menu in place, and they do their thing.
I was there recently, and we offer over time. I’m like, hey, like, if you need me to come back and do the menu or redo it (I’m down), but they’re like, ‘no, no, no, it’s cool.’ It works, leave it alone, right? Really smart. They’re like, just don’t mess with it.
Looking Stupid: Is that hard for you?
DB: I mean, as a creative person, sure, that drove me crazy, because I was like, oh, we can make this better, we can do that, and they’re like, no. Sometimes you don’t, more like, you know, less is more. And so, like, and I think people appreciate that, they appreciate the consistency. As a chef, it was easier to like, almost um, I tried, I, I had one, yeah, I have one. as a chef, it was always easier to like, you know, this freneticism and this like impulsiveness, like, Sometimes it really doesn’t work in your favor, and the same with like music, right?
(Recently) I was playing drums on this thing, and we were working with this really big producer and director. The lead singer was like, “Hey, can we do one more take?”, and everyone else in the band was like, “Dude, we got it, we don’t want to do another take”, but the director was says, “Listen, I’m gonna give you another chance, and I don’t think there’s ever anything, there’s never such thing as like, we should never not try it again, but I will say, 90% of the time, it’s not better. If you do another take after you get it.”
And so we did it again, and obviously, and he was right, like, it wasn’t better, we all stopped, and we, we the thing he was like, no, you’re right, we didn’t get it, the last one was better.
And like, you know, I think like, I’m learning a lot from that too. It’s like, you know, with mission, and, you know, back to what I was saying, what worked was, I don’t run the business, I don’t own the business, like, I kind of just like, go do the recipes.
LS: Is that a relief?
DB: I kind of jokingly tell people, I’m like you’re at Disneyland, and I’m like, you know, Mickey Mouse. I’ll pop out here and there, but you’re really part of The experience and there’s so much more behind it there. I feel like the mascot they’re kind of like I go and check in, but like, it’s running, and like they’re running it, and I’m really happy to work with the team, I learned a lot from them. I get to work in Chinatown, with these amazing chefs that are really incredible wok chefs that have worked in Chinatown for a long time, and I love it, you know.
Working with Steven Starr, he’s like one of the most prolific and successful restaurateurs in the United States, and he has like 40 something restaurants, and I wanted to find out what would it be like to just go work with someone that, you know?
When I saw what was working for me with Mission, I was like, “OK”, and we’d been having some conversations, and like, they wanted to redo Budaakon and I was thought “Man, maybe the secret is not me learning how I didn’t- (Danny interrupts himself) I’m not going to be the best business person ever, but I do think I want to continue to get better and learn and absorb, and I just wanted to see how they things. I thought “wow, this is a great opportunity to work with someone else, and develop something that’s not Mission Chinese. I’ve only done Mission Chinese for the last 15 years or so. It’s like, And the cool thing here is like nothing is Mission Chinese.
LS: What are the biggest differences?
I mean, the biggest difference is, you know, I, I’ve made this analogy a long time ago, I said “It’s like Mission Chinese is like, cool, it’s like we’re playing at like Bowery Ballroom, you know, which is like one of my favorite fucking venues, it’s amazing. Buddakon is like you’re playing at Madison Square Garden
For instance, on a busy night at Mission Chinese in Manhattan, maybe we’ll do 100 covers, you know, and that feels pretty busy.
Buddakon does something like 1100 people a night, you know, so the scale is like massive.
LS: What’s it like dealing with like a kitchen that’s that big? Like that’s gotta be a really different undertaking, even hiring.
I’m not responsible for hiring or staffing, I’m the culinary director here, and, and in many ways (this place is) kind of running itself, right? So there’s a sensitivity to that. I want to honor what’s working. I think the easiest thing to do would be to come in and, like, you know, see, there’s certain things that you don’t touch, right? Like, you know, it’s like when a big band’s going on tour, it’s like, you know, this restaurant’s been around for 20 years in March, just 4 or 5 songs you gotta play.
LS: Right, people buy the tickets, you gotta play the hits.
I talked to Chris Conley about this a long time ago when we were, me and Geoff (Rickly) and Chris were, we were playing with (their musical project) Narx that I asked him, because I was at this point in my career then where I was having this struggle, I was like, “How do you outdo the thrice cooked bacon? I was like trying to redo the thrice cooked bacon or like outdo the salt cloud fried rice, or outdo them up with, you know, all these dishes, the kung pao pastrami and Mission Chinese, all these dishes.
This was in New York in like 2019 or 2018. Mission had been going for a while, but all the dishes in New York that were still the most popular, most beloved were all dishes that I developed in San Francisco. And so I was like, there wasn’t really a dish in New York. And I felt like “I need to have that new hit.” Like, “Where’s where’s that song, you know, I was tired. I was like, dude, I’m just tired of being like the kung pop pastrami guy. So I ask them I was like, dude, do you ever get sick of playing At Your Funeral, or whatever song you have to play at your encore?
Chris had really good insight. He’s like, you have to almost take better care of that song, and honor that much more than the newer things you’re working on, because that was what got you through the door.
It was really helpful because I was like, OK, cool. And that kind of helped me not put so much pressure on myself. I was like, OK, well, people are gonna show up and they’re, they’re gonna want these things, you know.
LS: That lines up with when you were opening the spot in (Bushwick music venue) Elsewhere, yeah?
Yes, and that was like one of the hardest times of my life. I was going through a divorce. There was this lawsuit happening at Mission Chinese, the world was falling out from beneath me, you know what I mean? And it was really difficult. Plus, we opened in the middle of nowhere, right? We opened (figuring) oh, Bushwick’s gonna develop
LS: The venue was also establishing itself right? Every night wasn’t a banger.
DB: Yeah, not every night’s a banger. Also, people don’t want to eat Sichuan food before they go to a rave, you know, like, it’s totally my thought was like, oh, people are gonna love eating here before and after shows,
LS: I mean, you did save my life with mapo tofu at that Power Trip gig.
(Laughing) The energy was there, the excitement was there, but that kind of lined up with one of the hardest times of my life. I’m happy I did it, you know, I’m happy I went through it. I’m really proud of what we created there, and I’m really proud of the people that I got to work with there. I’m still close with some of the people that I worked with there. And um it was special, you know.
I always make these analogies to music because I feel like it’s the highest risk- restaurants and music, or any creative really…Being a musician and being a musician on tour, there’s this glamorized version of it, and it’s same with being a chef. People are like, “Oh, it must be like, it’s so cool, like, it’s the dream to just be a chef, or it’s a dream to be a band on tour.” And a lot of people don’t really understand or realize when you’re a band on tour, it’s fun, but you’re like in a van. And you’re eating fast food all the time. It’s not as glamorous as,
LS: Touring when you have people to answer to in your personal life, it’s like it’s a different ball game.
DB: Yeah totally, and it’s a business, right? Music and food are businesses, and it’s hard, to poor everything you have into something, that you really think is getting there, and then you put it out to the world, and it’s open season, anyone can say what they want.
Everyone’s an expert these days, and I guess it’s been like that for a long time. Going back to the Bay Area days, when things started hitting with Mission, I never read the positives, I only read the negatives. There’d be hundreds of Yelp reviews, and I’d scroll past all the good reviews to find the one star, and just let that tear me up.
That was before Instagram or Twitter, that was before all this stuff, Yelp was kind of the first medium for me to see people responding in real time, what they thought about to what I do.
LS: What does that look like now?
DB: Fast forward to now, a lot has changed, not a lot has changed, like, I’m developing this whole body of work for Buddakan, and there’s a lot more structure here. We’re doing tastings with the owner, everything’s up for discussion, but it’s really…The things I wished for over the years? The “I just wanna stop playing the hits and make new stuff.” Sometimes it’s really hard when you get what you wish for. I’ve noticed that there is no catalyst moment for creativity.
I thought you know, when I had (the Bushwick location of Mission Chinese), I’m going to build out my dream restaurant. I’m going to build a dream kitchen, and I’m going to be able to finally just create. And it’s probably like when a musician gets to record at some sacred studio they’ve always wanted to be in, with all the bells and whistles. Sometimes you can’t make the music that you’re able to make in the garage.
Photo by Jacky Liang
LS: That’s a tough thing to realize.
You can’t just constantly be beating yourself up though. I never played sports, but I never wanted to become the pitcher that doesn’t have a fastball anymore, you know what I mean? But ultimately that ends up happening.
Eventually, everyone wants the new hot young thing. I’m 43 now, going on 44, I’m not chasing…I wasn’t ever motivated by running shoulder to shoulder with my peers, like the other big chefs of the world. I felt like I was not in their category. I wasn’t playing the same game they were playing, like, I was not trying to get Michelin stars, or accolades, that was never my intention. I just really wanted to make stuff, find out how I was through cooking, and I’ve gotten to a lot of that, and to connect with people. To just be able to do my thing.
So now, with Buddakan, the challenge is don’t mess up a good thing. There’s a lot of good things happening here still. It’s very busy, there’s a whole ecosystem. It’s a living, breathing organism, basically. So I’m being brought on to help push it along into the next 20 years, right? But I’m not playing any of the hits. They’re not asking me to play Mission Chinese Food. Actually, they’re like “We don’t want that. We don’t want food that’s going to be challenging.” Like, flavor bombs, sure, but not weird or maximalist, so it’s just learning to play a different style of music. It’s just playing for a different band.
LS: What’s this band all about then?
DB: In the beginning I wanted to create a restaurant that doesn’t exist. That was always the thing with Missions Chinese, I’m going to create something that does not exist yet. But at Buddakan, the biggest competition I can find is the room. it’s an amazing room. You can’t build a restaurant like this in New York anymore, if you did it could lost like 35 million 55 million? It’s a huge space.
So when you’re in the kitchen, you can make something that looks really amazing and tastes great, but is it going to pop in the dining room? I was always so food focused at Mission Chinese, I really didn’t care. That kind of came second to making good food, and now it’s a little bit of all that. You’re mixing all these things, and it’s about reading the room and making sure that like, something I’m really happy with and the owner’s really happy with is something the guest is really happy with. it’s interesting, and it’s a welcome challenge to develop this muscle, instead of sitting in P and L meetings, and crunching numbers. Trying to figure out that stuff is not what I want to be doing.
LS: I’d imagine working on yourself at 40 feels much better than not working on yourself.
DB: Yeah, it’s nice to cook again, but I’ve got one of those jobs where I go in five days a week, ten hours a day, and just cook, cook, cook.
LS: I was going to ask if you were working the line at all
DB: I’m not on the line, I’m doing development for them, so i’ll do tastings for them every couple weeks, but it’s kind of hard,it’s more like recording an album than playing a show. You’re going in and laying down tracks, and you have a producer. That’s not something I ever had at Mission. It’s hard, but it pushes me to get better, and I think that’s the beautiful thing about this experience, I am getting better.
LS: What do you feel getting better?
DB: Just food. I’ve been looking at development stuff from when we started versus where we are now. Because I’m not at Mission Chinese anymore, I’m here, kind of pushing myself into this other area. It’s still me cooking Chinese food, but it’s not the same playbook as Mission Chinese. There’s no Szechuan peppercorn oil or anything, no out-there combinations.
Even just having an editor, someone who says, “You know, this is good, but I really don’t know if this is the right thing for here.” Like I’ll put a delicate, really nicely grilled piece of fish with wood ear mushrooms and uba, and they’re like “That’s great but maybe it’s for another restaurant, and not for here.” And that’s cool too. Every couple weeks it feels like you’re in a job interview all over again, because you’re putting yourself out there.
To me it’s like a luxury, because in the past, I would open a restaurant, I would spend all this time. Usually I had no time to work on getting a restaurant ready to open. So instead of basically a sound check, it’s just lots of rehearsal. It’s a lot of time to be like, “This is why they don’t like certain things.” Sometimes you push back, ya know, sometimes you think this (dish) will work, then sometimes you have to pivot completely, maybe this dish isn’t going to work here. Maybe we aren’t going to make this type of noodle dish. There’s a few untouchables right? Maybe that dish (in its original form) is the song you gotta play every night.
That’s how I think I’m getting better, having that editor, a voice in the room.
LS: Has adjusting to this new way of doing things given your Mission Chinese brain a rest? Have the ideas that are too extreme for Buddakan popped up more naturally because there’s nowhere to put them?
DB: OK that reminds me, when you called earlier, I was having a meeting with a rep from this really amazing noodle company called Sun Noodle that we get a ot of our noodles from, and basically they supply most every Japanese ramen restaurant in the United States, like, they’re the best ramen noodle, alkaline noodles, they’re really amazing. And so I’m going through their stuff- and to answer your question- it makes it so much easier, because you look at the stuff and go “OK, these four will work for Buddakan, but we can never have a soup noodle at Buddakan because it’s more of a sharing format. And, in my opinion, you shouldn’t share noodle soup.
LS: Nah that’s weird
DB: You’re hanging out with that by yourself. It’s a one person thing. So then I think that this (soup noodle) could be really great for Mission, because we’re developing this fatty beef mala hot pot thing. It’s like…it’s awesome. Also we have a chef there. He’s awesome, he’s worked at a bunch of really great Chinese restaurants in New York, and I learn from him. I will bring in product, I’ll find something at the market and ask, “Dude, this chili sauce looks like it’s made from Habaneros” and he’ll tell me, “Oh yeah, it’s used in this pumpkin broth that’s really spicy, and you eat it with hot pot, or it’s like a hot pot thing.” So then I’m like “Oh cool, can we make that?”
I will say the things that aren’t working here (at Buddakan) would never work at Mission Chinese. For instance, the grilled fish with dorade, we did it with king salmon this week, we could not do that at Mission. It’s very high touch, very composed, (the dishes that don’t work) are almost like we’re developing food for another restaurant.
LS: A secret third thing.
DB: The things that don’t make the cut at Buddakan are almost too mild, too nuanced, too refined, and that’s not what we’re doing at Mission. If anything it’s the other way. The things I’ve learned from the chefs at the Mission on 45 Mott St? I’ll be like “Oh wow, so that’s how you do that.” I’ve wanted to learn that technique with shredded pork for years, maybe we could use that at Buddakan.” So it kind of flows the other way.
Most of the time, I will say, the creatives processes are pretty segregated, they’re in their own worlds, but giving my brain a rest form Mission has made it easier to go back and flow there. I’ll go in, check in, “Oh cool, it’s Lunar New Year, why don’t we…maybe we can make this hot pot, I just met with these noodle guys, they can get you these awesome noodles, I tested that thing we worked on this week, let’s do that.”
It’s more of a director role as opposed to being behind the stove, but at Buddakan, I’m very much behind the stove. I’m in a development role here, which will then lead to a director role, but right now, Mission is just straight up directing.
LS: Interesting. So you’ve been growing and learning, going through these iterations of Mission Chinese, and now Buddakan, but you’ve also had a little you growing alongside you for a good bit of time, your son Mino. How has being a father and feeding someone that intimately. Does it change the way you look at cooking? As he changes and grows, it must be like feeding a different person, a picky kid to a hungry ass teenager
DB: (laughing) He’s only 11 but it’s crazy he looks 15
So I got in this argument with one of my development chefs yesterday at Buddakan. I personally don’t love crispy rice, but I know people like crispy rice. We have this tuna tartar we’re struggling with, it’s on the menu and we’re trying to change it, and I’m saying “I think we should do crispy rice, fuck it, it smacks and everyone loves it.” and he’s saying “No, we can’t do crispy rice.” and I’m thinking I dunno, that’s all that Mino talks about, and why not pay attention to what an 11 year old foodie is saying, they’re the ones that will be eating here for the next 20 years. He loves everything, He likes food more than I do at this point.
It’s interesting. I think you need to pay attention to the youth. Across the board, what they’re into, what they’re responding to. It doesn’t really matter what I think anymore, in a way. I’m old, you know? (The youths) ideas and what they respond to , I think it’s very important.
I was having a conversation with him last night, messing around, “What if I made a horrible dinner for you” or something like that, and he’s saying that’s so crazy because I’m a chef
I was like, okay, that’s great. I was like, no, but, like, when I make food at home, like, what if I maybe something you really didn’t like? Or something like that. He was just like, I guess in the morning I made him breakfast. I always try to cook him breakfast, but we had very little in the fridge. I’ve got these Lodi beans from Norwich Meadows farm, here in New York, I braised off porcini broth from a friend’s birthday, some broccoli raab leaves, a little bit of really nice rice from Koshi Ikara rice from Mitsua in Jersey. Basically rice and beans with some greens, and I seared off a few pieces of shortrib. Really quick, simple.
And he’s like, well yeah, this morning the beans and rice breakfast was a little weird, but it tasted good, ya know? But we could have had a bagel or something.
He doesn’t need the fancy stuff, he wants to eat Popeyes more than anything in the world, know what I mean? But growing up that’s all I ate was fast food, so now I’m like, sure you can do that on Fridays, or every once in a while.
LS: Sounds like normal parenting stuff
Yeah, totally, but now he gets to leave campus for lunch, and no one really educated me about nutrition in Oklahoma. I ate the same thing every day, pizza, Doritos, and Dr. Pepper, literally every day. And so I want him to have that experience as a child, but I also think you need a balanced diet, something green every day.
So in a lot of ways I don’t think I’m the fun cook you’d think. People think he must eat so crazy, but we eat pretty balanced meals, and try not to eat out a lot. But on fridays, he gets to go to Taco Bell with his friends, but I still won’t let him have Baja Blast. For me it’s like, because I grew up having a whole bag of Funions and another Dr. Pepper or two, I’m kind of like, there are other things, I didn’t have that option, so sometimes I’m more on the side of “Go get a smoothie, there are other things.”
But it’s cool. it’s really fun eating with him. I always run things by him. “What do you think of this?”